Re-order Layers

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Re-order Layers

Postby wwaag76 » Mon May 30, 2016 10:51 am

I have a slide with 21 layers. Is there an easy way to reverse the layer order, aside from dragging each one individually?

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby Marie78 » Mon May 30, 2016 11:35 am

Hi

I would say no.

Except probably editing the psh file with a text editor but it's risky...
Chris Marie

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby im42n8 » Mon May 30, 2016 6:21 pm

ANS: NO.

Don't even try to edit the PSH file ... like Marie sez it's risky. But too, it's more than a little time consuming and tricky unless you know what you're doing. Even then, the amount of time expended wouldn't justify the effort (there would be an awful lot that you'd have to change manually). Just move the layers around in the layer stack directly.

Wait until the day when you have 50+ layers in your layer stack ... and want to move things around. You think it's tricky and time consuming now ... ha!

One thing you might consider (if possible), is grouping as many layers together as you can to move as a unit (setting one layer as a mask and then extending the mask depth to include as many of the layers as you can to move as a unit ... Mask groups move multiple layers as one unit). Move the group and then unmask when the "group" has been relocated. It could be a helpful trick.

We've asked for layer groupings ... the request is several years (or more) old. As the power of the computers have increased, so too have the number of layers increased that different effects require. Layer management requirements go up as well. Photodex hasn't figured how to deal with that one yet.

Have fun!

Dale
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby Marie78 » Mon May 30, 2016 11:32 pm

Hi
im42n8 wrote:...
One thing you might consider (if possible), is grouping as many layers together as you can to move as a unit (setting one layer as a mask and then extending the mask depth to include as many of the layers as you can to move as a unit ... Mask groups move multiple layers as one unit). Move the group and then unmask when the "group" has been relocated. It could be a helpful trick...


Good idea Dale :D : I noticed the fact but never thought of using it that way.
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby im42n8 » Tue May 31, 2016 7:35 am

You know, ... dang it ... I just paid attention to the fact that THIS IS A TOPIC FOR GOLD. Must've been tired ... when I responded last.

GOLD has no masking capability ... So, if you have PRODUCER, the idea holds merit. GOLD ... well, it's just a case of wishful thinking. [ s i g h ]

Dale
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby cherub » Tue May 31, 2016 8:27 am

wwaag76 wrote:I have a slide with 21 layers. Is there an easy way to reverse the layer order, aside from dragging each one individually?


You've posted in the ProShow Gold section, so I would like to know if you really use Gold, or if you are a user of ProShow Producer, and posted here by mistake.

Secondly, I would like to know why exactly you want to reverse the layer order. :D
The order of layers doesn't change the order in which pictures appear in a slide. It just shows which layer comes on top, and which goes to the bottom. (or, if you wish, which layer will cover another layer)

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby wwaag76 » Tue May 31, 2016 4:26 pm

Sorry. I did post on the wrong forum. I looked on PSP, couldn't find my post, and then realized I had posted it on PSG. As they say--my BAD!!! As to WHY, another good question. I had forgotten the basics, that layers must always be on top. I re-arranged them manually, and afterward, realized my mistake. Two senior moments in one day--actually not too bad.

The problem is that logically, for some of my styles, I always start with the bottom layer, then add images sequentially in the order that I want them to be shown--the exact opposite of how they must be entered into PSP. If there was a command to select a group images and reverse the order, then all would be well. As I recall searching awhile ago, there is no such command. Please post back if I'm wrong.

Next time, I'll try and post on the correct forum.

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby cherub » Tue May 31, 2016 6:48 pm

wwaag76 wrote:Sorry. I did post on the wrong forum. I looked on PSP, couldn't find my post, and then realized I had posted it on PSG. As they say--my BAD!!! As to WHY, another good question. I had forgotten the basics, that layers must always be on top. I re-arranged them manually, and afterward, realized my mistake. Two senior moments in one day--actually not too bad.


:D :D
I guessed as much. One of my customers asked me a similar question not long ago, so I had a feeling that you actually wanted to reverse the order in which your pictures appear in the slide. :D

Here is a solution for you:
Insert a blank slide in your show. Into it start dragging the pictures that you need in that slide.
Arrange the layers as you want them to appear in the slide, by dragging each picture into its correct position in the layer stack. While dragging, pay attention that a black line is going to appear either at the top or at the bottom of the layer that is being selected. That line appears as long as you hold the mouse. When you release the mouse, the picture is being placed in that spot.

When you have everything in order, then, and only then, apply the style that you want :D
Is the order right now?

If not, then, revert the slide to its basic form by applying the style named "NO STYLE". This is the very first style that appears in your list, in a black rectangular.
Rearrange the layers once more with the arrows, and then apply the style you need, once again.

Does this solve your problem ?

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby wwaag76 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:20 am

Does this solve your problem ?

Thanks for the reply. My question was whether there was an "easy" way to do this and apparently the answer is "no". For me at least, the preferred way is to change the order on the slide list first, corresponding to the layer order for a particular effect. Then combine the slides, change the time, and lastly apply the effect. For effects having only a few layers, it's pretty easy to reverse the order and know that the bottom layer (that which will be shown first) will be last in the slide list. However, as the number of layers increase, it becomes more difficult. Ideally, one should be able to arrange the slide list according to the order in which they will be shown--the way most things work--left to right--first to last. Once you're happy, then select the number of slides corresponding to the number of layers, right-click and have the option to reverse order. At the moment, you have the option to randomize the slide order, but not reverse it. Arranging the order in the slide list is also much faster than re-ordering layers once the multi-layer effect has been applied. Perhaps a suggestion for future releases. Again, thanks for your reply.

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:33 am

Just because a layer is the bottom layer doesn't mean it'll be the layer to show first (or last). In fact, you can have any order of layer you want in the layer stack and have the order in which they display be completely different. This is particularly the case when it comes to an effect (style) that's applied to a slide. Some effect authors prefer that you apply an effect to a blank slide and others (like myself) prefer a slide on which you have placed the images. A correctly crafted style should use the order those image layers appear on the slide as the order of appearance (but they should also tell you what that order is. For instance layer 1, layer 2, layer 3, layer 4 would show layer 1 first, layer 2 2nd, layer 3 3rd and layer 4 last. Or if appearing side by side, layer 1 and 2 are displayed first, left and right; layers 3 and 4 are displayed next, left to right (layer 3 is left, layer 4 is right).

Changing an effect AFTER it's been applied could be a recipe for breaking the effect, unless you know what you're doing. That's because of the existence of adjustment layers, border and shadow layers, masks for cropping, or layers that are there simply to change the visual appearance of an image (such as making it no longer appear on top of another layer).

Changing the order of the slides is confusing to me ... I think of the order in which the slides appear as a process of telling a story. Linearly reversing their order or even randomizing the order of the slides doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me (except in a few isolated situations). Also confusing to me is the comment "...select the number of slides corresponding to the number of layers, right-click and have the option to reverse order." What?! Are you talking about selecting slides that have a number of layers that corresponding the layers required by a particular style? But, changing the order of the slide list still (kinda) escapes me (for the reason espoused).

Dale
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby Marie78 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:38 am

Hello

Dale, I agree with a good part of your remarks but I'am sure I once or twice, reversed one effect : for exemple images coming from outside piling in the slide that I wanted to fly away from a pile (I am not sure my english is good enough to explain the idea :oops: ).

But I agree that this cannot be done just by reversing layers order... It takes time to well underdand how the effect is done, and to change the order of layers but also keyframes and most of the time properties associated to that keys...
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:25 pm

As I said Marie, unless you know what you're doing, making changes to an applied effect is a recipe for disaster. To the uninitiated, it's quite easy to completely ruin an effect and have no idea how to recover ... except to start over on that slide. But, for those who understand how ProShow works and how the effect is doing its magic, it's not uncommon for someone to save themselves work by simply revising an existing effect.

It's often a case that what LOOKS simple is (deceptively) not quite so simple. :D

Dale
What's New: Tools for ProShow: v10.17f1 Access ProShow capabilities Photodex doesn't provide (For PSG & PSP).
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby wwaag76 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 1:20 pm

Image

Here's a very simple example of a style that I often use for showing images of similar content--oftentimes flowers within a garden. No story to tell other than presenting images. It begins with a slow zoom of a background 16:9 image (layer 11) and the remaining 4:3 images simply rotate in one on top of the other until the end. Very simple. I begin by importing the 11 images from the File List into the Slide List, combine them into a single slide that now has 11 layers and then apply the style. To do this correctly, the sequence of images in the Slide List must be in reverse order, i.e. the last image shown is first image in the Slide List and the background image (layer 11--the first shown) is the last of the 11 images in the Slide List. For that reason I would like to simply drag images from the File List into the Slide List in the order I want them shown--not in the reverse order. For that reason, it would be convenient to simply select the 11 images, and reverse their order so that they would be placed into the proper layer once the style is applied. Obviously, it's not a show stopper, but thought I'd just ask if this can be done in PSP--the answer seems to be "NO". Thanks for your reply.

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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:50 pm

It would be nice to have considerably more capability added to the Keyframe Editor. Some additional features were asked to be added to it long ago ... nothing yet ... hold your breath not (for a blue face get you will). For the reorder idea to work we could need to be given the ability to drag the layer metaphor (or a group) to a new position. While we can select multiple keyframes (each one on a different layer) we can't select thumbnails (layer metaphor) to move them anywhere.

What you have shown here tho is an atypical. I have created things of a similar nature in the past, to be sure. But, as I say, it's an atypical setup. And NO, the order you've shown is NOT a must ... it's simply one order among many that you can use. Appropriate use of keyframes to adjust opacity with layers 1 through 10 in reverse order ... can achieve effectively the same visual effect. You should note that even tho you've got a fade option on the start and end keyframes, you should know that the time associated with each fade (layer transition) varies with the slide time.

There are a number of enhancements to the program that people who use this program often would like to see. Someone at Photodex has a brake firmly applied to new features or enhancement of existing features under the excuse that they're trying to avoid feature bloat as has happened to programs such as After Effects. The idea being that Photodex wants the new or casual user to be able to use the program without needed to resort to a manual or help file. That means that the advanced and beyond users are left in the lurch. And it means we have to come up with our own solutions to "problems" (or perceived problems). We have a long list (somewhere...).

Yes, the answer to your particular wish is an unqualified and emphatic NO! It doesn't however reduce our wish for some enhancements that address our requests and wishes (some of them very long term...).

Dale
What's New: Tools for ProShow: v10.17f1 Access ProShow capabilities Photodex doesn't provide (For PSG & PSP).
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Re: Re-order Layers

Postby Marie78 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:19 am

HI

wwaag76 i understand you concern but I work a very different way : I apply style to an empty slide then, drag and drop each image from the File list into the layer I want this image to be.

If the file liste is not too long, this is very quick to do (and we can enlarged the file list before doing this..)

Hope this may help you.
Chris Marie

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