How can I fix a jittery slideshow

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby gpsmikey » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:39 pm

It will be interesting to see what they have to say. I have not created a show for a while, but when I get done crunching through all the shots my wife and daughter took in the Grand Canyon and surrounding area last week, I think I am supposed to put them all together in a show for them (it's on my "honey do" list :D )

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby debngar » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:43 am

Triggaaar wrote:---snip---
It seems strange that there used to be an option to reduce saturation, and that's now gone.


The option to desaturate is still available under DVD output options. It used to be default set to desaturate 80%. I imagine it was because the old picture tube TVs were nearly all too saturated in playback. But now that they don't make those any longer I think they must have changed it to 100% as default and offered the option to tick the box to be able to lower it.

(See page 339 of the manual)
Desaturation removes some of the saturation from your colors in the images. On most all picture tube TVs the color was oversaturated because of the deficiencies in the picture tube. Without using Desaturation, your images might appear to be too vivid, making color distinctions difficult. Colors such as bright reds and greens can easily become ‘blown out’ without some amount of Desaturation applied
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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby Triggaaar » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:11 am

debngar wrote:The option to desaturate is still available under DVD output options. It used to be default set to desaturate 80%. I imagine it was because the old picture tube TVs were nearly all too saturated in playback. But now that they don't make those any longer I think they must have changed it to 100% as default and offered the option to tick the box to be able to lower it.
I didn't see your reply, but thank you. I have been discussing my issues with support, and I seem to have found a bug / feature.

The short version is:
I created I slideshow with ProShow Gold 4.5 (this is probably not relevant, but I'll have to create one from Producer to check)
I created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Video For Web, Devices and Computers > MPEG-4 H.264 1080p Profile High Quality
The result was an MP4 slideshow with over-saturated colours.

So I created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Custom Video File > Type = HD, Format MPEG-2, Colour profile sRGB (de-saturation not used)
The result was an MP2 slideshow with correct colours.

I then created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Video For Web, Devices and Computers > MPEG-4 H.264 1080p Profile High Quality
The result was an MP4 slideshow with correct colours.

ie, creating an MP4 slideshow in exactly the same way produces 2 different results (depending on whether I created an MP2 file, with colour profile set to sRGB first). I can repeat this at will.

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby debngar » Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:25 am

Well, I can't say why it makes a difference in the two mp4 output files except something internally must be changed once you run it through the custom settings path. My images are usually exported to full size sRGB jpgs (from RAW files) using Lightroom and that I can remember have not had problems with the color when viewed on a flat, thin-screen type TV. I can't say the same for viewing shows on an older TV.

I never mess with the color profile in ProShow because I think defaults to sRGB which is what already matches my jpgs. Since the color profile of devices can vary it seems prudent to sticl with sRGB in most cases for me unless someone I'm making a show for specifies the need for something different.

That said, I see where there is no place to set to sRGB except by going through custom. Maybe it's best to choose custom each time rather than choosing a ready made selection. That way you'll be sure to have the settings as you need them to be.

It would be nice if those other settings would be offered in the > Video For Web, Devices and Computers area but I suspect those are made that way to simplify the steps for users that don't want to hassle with the other settings.

You said you'd discussed this with Photodex already so maybe they will tweak something in a future version.
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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby gpsmikey » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:22 am

Triggaaar wrote:
The short version is:
STEP1: I created I slideshow with ProShow Gold 4.5 (this is probably not relevant, but I'll have to create one from Producer to check)
I created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Video For Web, Devices and Computers > MPEG-4 H.264 1080p Profile High Quality
The result was an MP4 slideshow with over-saturated colours.

STEP2: So I created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Custom Video File > Type = HD, Format MPEG-2, Colour profile sRGB (de-saturation not used)
The result was an MP2 slideshow with correct colours.

STEP3: I then created output as follows:
Publish > For Computers > Video For Web, Devices and Computers > MPEG-4 H.264 1080p Profile High Quality
The result was an MP4 slideshow with correct colours.

ie, creating an MP4 slideshow in exactly the same way produces 2 different results (depending on whether I created an MP2 file, with colour profile set to sRGB first). I can repeat this at will.


Interesting - what happens if you exit Proshow and re-start it again between STEP2 and STEP3 ? Does that "undo" whatever is being set by STEP2? It certainly sounds like something is getting set (or left behind) that should not be happening. (I added the "STEP?" in the quote so I could reference them)

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby Triggaaar » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:33 am

Reminder: the following applies to a trial version of Producer 6.
debngar wrote:Well, I can't say why it makes a difference in the two mp4 output files except something internally must be changed once you run it through the custom settings path. My images are usually exported to full size sRGB jpgs (from RAW files) using Lightroom
That's exactly what I do too. And I can't see why it makes a difference either, but it does, and that's why I think it's a bug. I've tested it and repeated it.

Maybe it's best to choose custom each time rather than choosing a ready made selection.
I've tried and I'm not sure how to create an equivalent custom file (H.264).

You said you'd discussed this with Photodex already so maybe they will tweak something in a future version.
Their initial response was that I shouldn't expect my jpegs to match the slideshow. The thing is, I'm not demanding perfection or anything close to it, I just know the results I was getting are not acceptable. I didn't get the latest details to them until Friday night, so I guess I won't hear back until Monday at some point. It would be great if they could replicate the problem, but they may not be able to. And I don't suppose they'll tweak the way it works unless others are also having issues.

gpsmikey wrote:Interesting - what happens if you exit Proshow and re-start it again between STEP2 and STEP3 ? Does that "undo" whatever is being set by STEP2?
I haven't tried that. I'll wait to hear back from Photodex. If they'd like me to do more testing and take detailed notes I'd be happy to. But they don't know me, and don't know how careful and thorough my testing is, so they might not be confident about my results.

It certainly sounds like something is getting set (or left behind) that should not be happening.
Indeed. I've been through the manual looking for how to set the colour profile, and it's not not dealt with very succinctly in the manual. I believe some outputs (eg a .exe) allow the playback PC to select a colour profile.

In fact, just the previews I see in ProShow (Gold 4.5) are completely the wrong colour. I never worried about this, because the output is all I really care about, but it does seem odd to me that software like this doesn't show my images as they should be.


Notes about my setup for:
My main PC has 2 monitors, which are hardware calibrated with a Spyder. Jpegs are created (from RAW files) with Lightroom, with output set to sRGB. When I open these Jpegs with Windows Photo Viewer, the colours match those in Lightroom (viewed side by side). This PC has ProShow Gold 4.5 on it. I used this version to create my test slideshow. When opening this slideshow in ProShow, the previews don't match the Jpegs at all well. To get anything like an acceptable slideshow I have to de-saturate the output to 80% (for viewing on a PC, not an old TV).

My laptop is not calibrated, but the colours of jpegs and images in Lightroom look fine. I have a trial of ProShow Producer 6 on it. I have opened the show created by Proshow Gold 4.5 in Producer for testing. I could create a new show, but I don't expect that to make a difference.

The best results I've had so far are when using Producer to create an MPEG-4 H.264, after creating an MPEG-2 with sRGB selected. The show created looks very good when played using either Quick Tine Player, or VLC Media Player (but not with Windows Media Player).

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby Triggaaar » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:20 am

I've just done some more testing. Results are not what I expected. The testing essential uses 2 steps:
STEP1: Publish > For Computers > Video For Web, Devices and Computers > MPEG-4 H.264 1080p Profile High Quality
STEP2: Publish > For Computers > Custom Video File > Type = HD, Format MPEG-2, Colour profile sRGB (de-saturation not used)

I didn't test any files created until the end of the testing, as I want to keep the test simple. Here's what I did:

Show created by PSG 4.5. Opened show in trial version of Producer 6.0. Find files (as they are on a USB stick, not in the structure the original show was created).
Do Step 1 - save file as Test A
Do Step 2 - save file as Test B
Do Step 1 - save file as Test C
Close ProShow.
Open ProShow as above.
Do Step 1 - save file as Test D
Do Step 2 - save file as Test E
Close ProShow.
Open ProShow as above.
Do Step 1 - save file as Test F

Check results.
MPEG-2 files are the same size as each other - they always are.
MPEG-4 file sizes vary by a couple of KB.
All files have the correct colour calibration.

So I can no longer recreate the problem I was creating on the first batch of testing.
I still have the original output files, and the colour is still incorrect in half of the MPEG-4 files (ie, the issue is not due to the Media Players).

Had the results shown the errors I was expecting, I'd have created a new show from ProShow Producer, rather than using the one I created in PSG 4.5, but since everything worked, there's no point.

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby gpsmikey » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:23 pm

Drat - I was hoping that that would nail it down to some variable being initialized when Proshow loaded and not being set correctly by one of the steps. I hate those "now you see them, now you don't" problems - they can be a real pain to track down.

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby Triggaaar » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:22 am

gpsmikey wrote:Drat - I was hoping that that would nail it down to some variable being initialized when Proshow loaded and not being set correctly by one of the steps. I hate those "now you see them, now you don't" problems - they can be a real pain to track down.
Yep. First time round I could re-create it at will. I guess there's something in ProShow that allows the colour calibration to go wrong, but that's just a guess. Support couldn't re-create the problem, but I've sent them the MPEG-4 files, so at least they can see it.

I'm roughly happy though. I'll get Producer in 7 weeks when my loyalty discount comes round again, and I'll make my shows in MP4 H.264. Unless they find the bug, I'll just have to check the colour each time. Then I need to find the best output for mobiles and tablets. I'm not sure how good they are yet (from ProShow), but the next format should be H265, which is more compressed and higher quality.

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby Triggaaar » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:30 am

Photodex haven't been able to effectively reproduce the issue, so they're leaving it for now.

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Re: How can I fix a jittery slideshow

Postby gpsmikey » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:51 pm

That is unfortunate - those can be really tough to track down (I speak from experience). The ones we like are the ones where we can create a simple show (or other piece of code or whatever) that will reliably create the problem. Some of these can turn out to be some of the strangest things interacting with others - recently someone here found the backup program "Carbonite" was causing strange interactions. Some time ago I found a little device I use via the USB port to program some microchips I work with to cause Sony Vegas to fail to start. Nobody can explain just why there should be any interaction between them at all and unplugging the programmer eliminated the problem. Sometimes it all comes down to bat wings and incense unfortunately.

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Lots of PIC and Arduino microprocessor stuff too !!

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