Buying a new camera... need a little input.

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

One of them is not to be a sales outlet for Joe's Cheap Shop on the internet.

Rick, I'm so glad you said this.

Barbara

[SithTracy Profile Private message]

If you are new to dSLR, consider reading the review at dpreview.com on the Olympus EVOLT E-510. Olympus Zuiko lenses are some of the best, though they get a lot of flack for their 4/3 sensor. I suggest you research before you purchase. I ended up going with the E-510/2 lens kit and am very happy with the decision. I strongly considered Nikon prior to the purchase and gave Pentax and Canon a look as well. The DPReview forums are a great place to start as well as fourthirdsphoto.com and their forums. TheOnlinePhotographer.com just posted some initial thoughts on sensor sizes.

Regardless if you purchase an Olympus, Nikon, Canon, Pentax, or Sony (personally I will never recommend Sony, had bad luck with their products and service), try to learn and enjoy it.

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

I own the Olympus E-20, which is a truly fine camera, but with the Olympus, you're locked into the very few lenses they produce. Canon and Nikon have a multiplicity of lenses available, but as mentioned above, whichever camera you buy, that's the brand you'll stay with because of previously purchased lenses.

Barbara

[DickK Profile Private messageWebsite]

Rick, I agree, mostly. If I'm going to a real camera store then yes I'd agree -- using the owner's time and his resources is only fair if I'm going to buy there or at least give him a shot at making the sale. Most won't (can't) match the online price but my experience is that they'll come down or throw something in the deal to make the sale. And I'm not reluctant to pay a bit more for the value received there. Conversely if I got my chance to touch the camera at Best Buy, no guilt at all about going online for the purchase--never any value received there.

Dick

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

If you go to a store to hold it, feel it, and then go to the internet and buy it at the cheapest place then you are doing the whole world a disservice. I will buy from the internet frequently for price reasons based on reviews etc. But if I have to go to brick and mortar to actually see something, then I must also agree to buy it at a brick and mortar. If I don't then B&M goes away. Usually it's a few dollars more to buy there but they exist for a variety of reasons. One of them is not to be a sales outlet for Joe's Cheap Shop on the internet.

Though I do agree to a great degree with your sentiment, Rick, the way you've positioned this is way too black and white for my sensibilities. The world is rarely this black and white...all shades of grey.

If the retailer is selling the item for $1000, but you can get it on the web for $500 what do you do (ignoring the obvious risk of a scam on the net which is another matter altogether)? Does the brick/mortar shop provide $500 worth of value? What if the prices are $10,000 and $5,000? What if the buyer cannot afford the higher price? Should they not go in and "try" out the camera in that situation?

I don't think it's wise to propose such a blanket approach to what is an individual choice based on personal ethics and circumstances. It's all relative. The choices are not that clear in the real world, as you make them out to be.

Unless you are religious, in which case black and white views of the world and absolutist pronouncements of what is right versus what is wrong, with a prediliction towards forcing others to be of same mind, are de rigeur.

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

Speaking of local camera shops....one that is located in the downtown of the city I live near is going out of business and closing it's doors.

I need to go buy a bottle of champagne to celebrate!

Why, you ask?

I had purchased my wife's D70 there, when they were still hard to find (new release). And they spoke highly of their "custom" digital print processing using Fuji Frontier processing/printing equipment, so I figured I would let them do some bulk printing for a wedding Dana and I had shot. They knew that the prints were needed on time, so that they could be put into albums and sent by FedEx to Florida for a 2nd reception for guests that had not come up to Toronto for the wedding. The digital images had all been carefully post processed, with embedded profiles and were perfectly colour balanced (something I know quite well how to do).

They were late. I had to go back a half day later to pick up the shots, since they were not ready when they had been promised, despite having had many days to do the run of 300 images.

Being in a rush, I grabbed the packs of images, ran my other errands and headed home to put the pics into albums. When I looked at the shots I was horrified. The colour and contrast for the prints was abysmal....not something I could send to the happy couple, but I had only a few hours to meet the FedEx cutoff.

The shop refused to reprint the photos, refused to refund the money and had the temerity to say that was "how digital prints were". Total and utter bullshit to masquerade their incompetence in using their equipment. A friend of mine who has worked extensively with the Fuji Frontier equipment concurred that the problem was between the keyboard and the chair.

Fortunately, I was able to rush out with a CD of the images to a local kiosk do-it-yourself shop in a local drugstore, and begged them to print all 300+ images, which they did. They were perfect. So there I was, sitting in my truck outside FedEx, slipping photos into the albums and packaging everything up. Made the deadline by 10 minutes, the couple had their photos in time and all turned out well. Fortunately, I printed all the enlargements myself (using a colour calibrated workflow and high end printers), so those were fine and didn't need redoing.

I told the store owners that when they went out of business, and I was quite sure that was only a matter of time given their attitude and unwillingness to fix problems, I would be outside their store with a bottle of bubbly to celebrate their well-warranted departure.

Karma can be a bitch sometimes. <evil grins>

These days, bulk 4x6 prints I do at Costco, since they are fast, cheap and good.

Those of you that have been paying attention, might ask why a couple flew to Toronto from Florida to get hitched? It's because there were two brides, no groom and the prevailing sentiment in many jurisdictions in the USA is to deny people happiness in such circumstances, since there is too much happiness in the world and adding to that would be a "bad thing(tm)". We seem to be more tolerant of same-sex marriages up here, and I must say, both sides came up for the wedding and it was one of the most enjoyable weddings I've ever attended. It was also an honour to be asked to photograph the event.

'nuff said.

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

I personally know a small business (motorcycle repair shop w/some clothing & gear for sale) where people walk in, look at, feel, try on, etc. all the merchandise while taking up the owner's time, then walk back out and buy the product they've chosen on the Internet. This owner has gotten very wise in a specific area, which involves the installation of parts. If the person buys the part from him, he installs it; if the person buys it on the Internet, that person is on his own. That right there is one of the benefits of buying locally and from a real human being: service, and beyond that, the ability to walk into the store and discuss and resolve problems. Yes, the cost is usually a little bit higher (never seen it anywhere near double), but with a person who knows how to run a business, the extra cost is entirely worth it.

Barbara

EDIT: Andrzej, can you buy the store's equipment at fire-sale prices?

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

IYes, the cost is usually a little bit higher (never seen it anywhere near double), but with a person who knows how to run a business, the extra cost is entirely worth it.

As I said at the start of my post, I agree with this sentiment for the most part.

But your comment "the extra cost is entirely worth it" is an "opinion" not a law, and nor is it as black and white as you make it appear. To be more accurate, you should have said "the extra cost is entirely worth it, to me, given the particular circumstances!".

What if you can't afford the higher price, even if the difference is small? There are many folks that this applies to.

And then, as my 2nd post illustrates, there are many brick and mortar businesses that get what they deserve. In spades.

As for your example, Barbara, I think the bike shop might be missing a trick. Rather than being in a huff about folks buying parts elsewhere, and potentially turning away future loyal customers, why not install the parts....at a higher installation fee than if they are bought in the store? More revenue....happier customers....conversion to buyers that will buy your parts. That approach is much more likely to result in customer loyalty and a successful business.

Maybe selling parts, be they bike or camera bits, has become a commodity business? Maybe the brick and mortar shops need to evolve to charge for the real "value-add" they give their customers. Let 'em buy the product anywhere....charge for the advice/installation/service, etc.

Makes me wonder where the problem really lies? In the consumer not sticking to black and white ethics or the shop owners not seeing the writing on the wall and adjusting their business model and value proposition to suit the changed business landscape?

As always, the answer is shades of grey.....likely a combo of both.

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

You obviously stand by your words, Andrzej. I can tell, because you said them twice.

It's always a matter of the details, no rule capable of covering all things. The problem at the bike shop involves warranty, customers returning with broken parts, expecting the shop to make good on them when the shop never sold them in the first place. Also, the shop has more than enough business and so needn't bother with customers who want to get a good deal both coming and going.

I, however, have no problem walking into a big, national chain and checking out the goodies before buying them online. I've never seen any benefit to buying at Best Buy or any others of their ilk. When it comes to camera equipment, however, there isn't a single store locally that sells the good stuff, and so I generally buy from B&H, which has certainly made hay both on the Internet and in their very real brick-and-mortar store down in NYC. Very savvy business owners.

Barbara

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

It's always a matter of the details, no rule capable of covering all things.

Aha....so we're in "violent agreement" on this one.

The problem at the bike shop involves warranty, customers returning with broken parts, expecting the shop to make good on them when the shop never sold them in the first place. Also, the shop has more than enough business and so needn't bother with customers who want to get a good deal both coming and going.

It's a pretty easy matter to publicize a policy that warranties are only offered on parts bought at the shop. There are also "service" warranties on the installation work, which can result in a grey area with customer supplied parts. Some customers will try to abuse this grey area....those customers should be fired, which is something few businesses are wont to do.

"More than enough business"? That sounds like a very unique business if that's their situation. More like "more than enough biz, right now"....but what if the ground is shifting and more of the parts biz goes online? Then where do they stand if they've not prepared by trying to garner more customers? But that's theoretical on our part....the real judgement call has to come from the business owner on what makes sense for them at any point in time and to plan effectively for the future, since change is inevitable.

I, however, have no problem walking into a big, national chain and checking out the goodies before buying them online. I've never seen any benefit to buying at Best Buy or any others of their ilk. When it comes to camera equipment, however, there isn't a single store locally that sells the good stuff, and so I generally buy from B&H, which has certainly made hay both on the Internet and in their very real brick-and-mortar store down in NYC. Very savvy business owners.

I've been in the B&H store in NYC and was underwhelmed. The product selection was inadequate (at the pro level), the place was too busy and it was too hard to get the attention of a clerk to ask questions. Maybe I was just there the wrong day? And buying on their net site is not cost effective if you're going across the border like I am. I stick to Vistek and Henry's up here, which offer good selection and excellent service, both in person and on their web sites.

But to comment on it being OK to stiff a big chain but not the small guys, that's an interesting moral stance, which puts you on a very slippery slope. Makes me wonder what the impact is on the single mom, working to make a living at such a chain? It's a fairly common stance (I subscribe to it myself to some degree), but then people do seem to like the low prices that the big chains offer (WalMart being the classic example). People decry the vanishing of the small stores, but buy at the big chains for the price. Something about having cakes and eating them too comes to mind here.

So...it's OK to stiff a big chain but not a small store? That sounds like a dubious moral balancing act worthy of the religious right.

Bike stuff I tend to get at a local shop, but then we do their web and design stuff for them, so they give me money back and the "special relationship" confers many added benefits in both directions.

Ah well....nice of you to illustrate that the whole issue is all various shades of grey, and like beauty, morality and ethics are very much in the eye of the beholder.

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

Anyway.....enough of the ethical philosophies. Each to their own judgement on that.

I'm off to get a photography fix. Been doing 12-16 hour days on the startup company, and just got back from most of the week on the road, so I need a fix bad! I haven't done any serious work at Bear Creek Sanctuary since before Xmas, and since it's a brilliant blue-sky, snowy/sunny winter day, I'm going to get my gear all packed up and go commune with the animals this afternoon.

Very therapeutic...I highly recommend it.

And very refreshing....since apex predators like Siberian tigers and lions don't bother much with ethical quandries....they just figure you are food and will eat you if you give 'em half the chance. That tends to breed some serious respect, if you have any sense at all, when dealing with such animals. The world of Mother Nature is one place that does seem to be a bit more black and white...you know exactly where you stand, and it's not very high on the pedestal.

Besides, I miss my girlfriend, Taj!

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

Were you on the high-school debating team?

Say hello to Taj for me. I like a cat with attitude.

Barbara

[Tarafrost Profile Private messageWebsite]

Were you on the high-school debating team?

Nope...but I play one on TV.

Hey....I have a solution to all these store vs internet quandries. The store owners need to post an armed guard in their doorway, who will sternly warn away rubberneckers and will prevent you from leaving without buying something. Yeah...that should about do it, doncha think?

Say hello to Taj for me. I like a cat with attitude.

That's "cattitude"!

[BarbaraC Profile Private messageWebsite]

What I think is that we've seriously sidetracked this thread.

Barbara

[marmart Profile Private message]

If I were buying a camera online I would shop at B&H, Ritz, Adorama or Amazon. Many online camera stores sell "grey market" stuff and I personally don't think the risk is worth it. But of course, to each his own. After almost getting royally scr---- buying from a "cheaper" source, I bought from Ritz locally and they matched the better online price.

IMHO

Mary