Creating a transparent file

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Creating a transparent file

Postby scorpio_e » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:11 am

I wanted to create a transparent file and bring it into psp to show cloud movement. I saved the file as a 24 bit png and brought it into psp. I ended up with a lot of artifacts.

Would a PSD document still support transparency in PSP?

What is the best way to do this?

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby pd » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:50 am

Never knew that a 24 bit png exits. I can only see 8, 16, and 32 bits/channel
A quick search on the internet produced a colourful specimen; http://www.mywebsite.force9.co.uk/png/png24.htm

I cutout a circle and a rectangle and placed it into Producer5. I changed mode to 32 bits. Saving as .png is not available and .psd was not regognised by Producer5
I then tried 16 bit. This can now be saved either as .png or .psd and opened both in producer.

Placed a layer underneath each file format and set different zooms for each layer. All played fine. I could see the picture underneath through the cutout. This is the answer to your question.


Now my question. What are the benefits of saving in 16 bits or higher ?

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby im42n8 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:04 pm

You should create your 24-bit PNG with NO background to merge into. That way, you should be able to get transparency in the file. Your application may have a 32-bit PNG (like Fireworks). The 24-bit option may not allow transparency. But, the 32-bit apparently has an 8-bit channel that creates the transparency and the resulting saved file is recognized as a 24-bit PNG.

You can save as an 8-bit file too ... with an alpha or index transparency but, you may find your shadows (if you have them) may not look very good. I wouldn't use it unless a high graphic image quality isn't required (such as with a mask). If you need details though, I'd save as 24-bit or higher.

If you wanted, you can save it as a PSD instead. ProShow does recognize PSD as an import option. I don't think using compression in PSD files is an important consideration (other than the fact that file size is considerably different). But then too, I don't use PSD as an import file type very often. It's usually either JPG, PNG, or TIFF.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby gpsmikey » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:02 am

I don't remember exactly how I got into the situation before but I did run into a case where for whatever reason, Proshow seemed to be using the embedded thumbnail instead of the actual file which, as expected, would give somewhat less than great results. Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly what the deal was, but we did conclude it was using the thumbnail instead of the actual file - it seems to me there was an issue with the format the actual image was saved as. Sorry, I can't remember any more than that other than I have seen that before.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby BarbaraC » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:55 am

I use .psd files in Producer all the time, including those with transparency, so if it's the easiest thing for you to do, go with it.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:17 am

Just as an aside, PSD has its roots from TIFF. Both come in compressed or non-compressed format and both can contain layers. However, PSD is much more flexible than TIFF. Adobe owns both file formats.

As for the best format to use: whatever you have available to you and whatever file format is easiest for you to use.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby BarbaraC » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:30 am

Dale, I've never seen a compressed PSD. This doesn't mean it's nonexistent, of course. It just means I've never come across it. Or maybe it's in later versions. (I use CS3.)

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:09 pm

Actually, PSDs are typically stored in a compressed format. In CS5 you have to get something from Adobe that will make some registry changes to allow saving PSD files without compression.

http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/sav ... ssion.html

CS6 though, has a file handling option to allow saving PSDs without compression (preferences | File Handling). They should have this option available as a File Save option rather than a global setting (that's dumb). But, that's how they implemented it.

As for CS3, not sure if uncompressed PSDs is available, or not...

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby BarbaraC » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:04 pm

PSD's in CS3 aren't compressed, and after checking, there seems no option for compression other than via the usual culprits.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby im42n8 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:16 pm

How do you know PSD's in CS3 are NOT compressed? How do you know it isn't the default save option (it is, by the way)?

The default compression used by Adobe in PSD file format is RLE (run-length encoded). Early versions of Photoshop used no compression ... RLE compression was introduced in Photoshop 3 for PSD files. Anyway, RLE provides a reasonably fast compression method and decent smaller file sizes than uncompressed files. So, while you can save your PSD file in CS3, you don't have the option to save an uncompressed file apparently. That changed with at least CS5 and now CS6. I can't find anything related to uncompressed PSD prior to CS5 ... other than the early PSD versions. I think RLE compression was introduced to PSD files with Photoshop 3. I bet that version of PS let you save uncompressed as well (since earlier versions were uncompressed PSD files). Not sure when Adobe stopped offering the uncompressed files saving option ... probably when the older version (PS2) became less prevalent).

Dale

PS I just found a spec for the PSD file format and it looks like there are 4 versions of compression supported:
Raw Data, RLE compressed, ZIP with prediction, and Zip without prediction. Hmmm, I wonder why they don't give us access to those options when we are saving the file? I wonder if maybe it has to do with some of the compatibility and/or export options for compatibility or web files?
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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby BarbaraC » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:37 am

This is one of those things I would never have thought about, but considering it now, I know that a TIF is larger than when the image is saved as a PSD. Right there is reason for suspicion. It makes me want to save as a TIF, not a PSD, before compressing with the JPG or PNG format. I don't know if there'd be any visible difference, but a bit of testing might tell.

Barbara

EDIT...I did some searching and finally came upon this: "PSD and Tiff files are not compressed in a lossy manner. They can be opened and edited without introducing additional compression artifacts each time." [Information given approximately a year ago.]
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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby im42n8 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:49 am

Yes, the RLE, ZIP, and LZW are all lossless compression schemes. Zip and LZW apparently are more appropriate for files that are predominately single color, and LZW does best with black and white images. That's for the best for compression size. Apparently RLE doesn't compress quite as much but represents a good compromise to ZIP and LZW. However, apparently while ZIP and RLE are supported by the PSD (proprietary) format, LZW is not. TIFF, however, apparently supports all 3 of them (and then some).

Also, there's no real compelling reason to use PSD over TIFF. Issues with slow loading have long since been addressed (particularly with the much more powerful computers these days). PSD is a proprietary format but TIFF is not. PSD has a legacy history of being derived from the TIFF format. Apparently too, there's a pretty good discussion going on right now as to the viability of the PSD format long-term. Being a proprietary format (to which the full specs apparently have not been publicly released) Adobe could drop support at any time. And, since TIFF does pretty much everything that PSD does, there's not much going for PSD, technically.

But, I don't know about all that stuff. For my purposes, I use JPG (non-archive stuff, general purpose stuff), PNG (when I need transparency), or TIFF (for the archive, transparency, and such). I use the PSD for editing purposes and then export from the master / reference file to a format that I'll use for my own purposes. In Lightroom, I use the DNG format and then export the images to either TIFF or JPG for use as appropriate to what I need it for.

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Re: Creating a transparent file

Postby BarbaraC » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:10 am

In the end, it all comes down to what you're doing. Since I do little in the way of photography these days and no printing at all, I've no need for anything other than PSD files and either PNG or JPG. The originals with all their layers are there just in case, though they're rarely to never touched again. Choosing the TIF format for a layered file produces something approximately 3 times as large as a PSD, so the latter is ideal for me with my miles of files. If Adobe blows up and goes out of existence, it's unlikely to create more than a tiny ripple in my life. For the photographer, on the other hand, perhaps it's wise to save those TIF files.

Barbara
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