Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
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Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:10 pm
Not sure which category this should go in -- this isn't really a show. It's more a demonstration of what's possible when you can set the rotation centers of various different layers to the same screen location.
DEMO:
Knowing the relationship between layers relative to their aspects, zoom settings, and location relative to each other allows you to create coordinated motion between those layers. Presently, getting that information and making effective use of it is a lot of work and somewhat difficult. The ability to create coordinated rotation centers became possible with Producer version 4.0 (which introduced the ability to change the layer’s rotation center). Generally, however, effectively utilizing changed rotation centers isn’t very straightforward without using a lot of math and a the possession of a good understanding of ProShow scaling. As of this writing, Photodex provides no tools that allow you to create motion using the tightly coordinated rotation centers seen in my demo.
As far as I know, no ProShow slideshows to date have shown motion using the closely coordinated rotation centers seen in the demo above. That’s because the ability to create them is not all that easy to do unless the situation between layers is relatively simple and straightforward. I am, I believe, the first to demonstrate coordinated rotation centers among various layers of different aspect, zoom, and location. The first demonstration of that capability is in my July 2011 Tailor-Made Photo Album Add-Ons demo. I have been making simple rotation center changes since at least August 2009 but nothing like this.
A layer’s rotation center, relative to a screen location not coincident with the layers’ exact center, will move with a change in size, aspect, and/or location. Knowing how to calculate the amount of change between layers is extremely important if you want to align the different layer’s rotation centers together.
As an aside, the ProShow grid is usable only as a “guide” since the location of the grid lines can change from session to session. As a result, using the grid to align different layer’s screen rotation centers together for tightly coordinated motion can be very difficult.
This simple demo shows some of what is possible when you know how to calculate the necessary rotation center values that will allow layers to rotate as one unit. The effects’ simplicity belies the complexity of calculations needed to create them. In addition to the photograph(s) (and a frame graphic on one of the slides), each effect uses only ProShow layers. No other graphics are used.
Dale
DEMO:
Knowing the relationship between layers relative to their aspects, zoom settings, and location relative to each other allows you to create coordinated motion between those layers. Presently, getting that information and making effective use of it is a lot of work and somewhat difficult. The ability to create coordinated rotation centers became possible with Producer version 4.0 (which introduced the ability to change the layer’s rotation center). Generally, however, effectively utilizing changed rotation centers isn’t very straightforward without using a lot of math and a the possession of a good understanding of ProShow scaling. As of this writing, Photodex provides no tools that allow you to create motion using the tightly coordinated rotation centers seen in my demo.
As far as I know, no ProShow slideshows to date have shown motion using the closely coordinated rotation centers seen in the demo above. That’s because the ability to create them is not all that easy to do unless the situation between layers is relatively simple and straightforward. I am, I believe, the first to demonstrate coordinated rotation centers among various layers of different aspect, zoom, and location. The first demonstration of that capability is in my July 2011 Tailor-Made Photo Album Add-Ons demo. I have been making simple rotation center changes since at least August 2009 but nothing like this.
A layer’s rotation center, relative to a screen location not coincident with the layers’ exact center, will move with a change in size, aspect, and/or location. Knowing how to calculate the amount of change between layers is extremely important if you want to align the different layer’s rotation centers together.
As an aside, the ProShow grid is usable only as a “guide” since the location of the grid lines can change from session to session. As a result, using the grid to align different layer’s screen rotation centers together for tightly coordinated motion can be very difficult.
This simple demo shows some of what is possible when you know how to calculate the necessary rotation center values that will allow layers to rotate as one unit. The effects’ simplicity belies the complexity of calculations needed to create them. In addition to the photograph(s) (and a frame graphic on one of the slides), each effect uses only ProShow layers. No other graphics are used.
Dale
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by BarbaraC » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:40 pm
Simple at first glance, but anyone who's tried rotating two objects so they dance right in step with each other knows it isn't the least easy, and what you've done here is way beyond that, beyond anything I've seen before. Probably Photodex has never seen it either.
We have people in Producer grammar school, having just started using it, and we have people who've gone on to high school plus some in Producer college, but you, Dale, are in the doctoral program.
Barbara
We have people in Producer grammar school, having just started using it, and we have people who've gone on to high school plus some in Producer college, but you, Dale, are in the doctoral program.
Barbara
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Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by Don100 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:44 pm
Thanks for posting this. I'm forever trying to find innovative ways of presenting my material. This helps to provide some alternatives.
Don
Don
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:12 pm
Thanx Barbara!
I never thought of it like that! But, one does have to consider that this is the first time anyone (including those at Photodex) has done anything like this. I don't think anyone else has figured out anything but simple uses for rotation centers. Coordinating rotation centers between various different types of layers is not as easy as it might first appear.
Good Luck Don! Tough and frustrating as it may be to figure this stuff out, you'll appreciate the results. Plenty of twists and turns getting there.
The effects may be simple (but interesting) at first glance but ferreting out the details that let you do them can take a bunch of time. What used to be difficult and time-consuming tho, in figuring out rotation centers to allow 2 or more different layers to rotate together is not quite as difficult or as time-consuming now that I know how get various layers to rotate together (using the same rotation point which is NOT the layers own center).
Dale
I never thought of it like that! But, one does have to consider that this is the first time anyone (including those at Photodex) has done anything like this. I don't think anyone else has figured out anything but simple uses for rotation centers. Coordinating rotation centers between various different types of layers is not as easy as it might first appear.
Good Luck Don! Tough and frustrating as it may be to figure this stuff out, you'll appreciate the results. Plenty of twists and turns getting there.
The effects may be simple (but interesting) at first glance but ferreting out the details that let you do them can take a bunch of time. What used to be difficult and time-consuming tho, in figuring out rotation centers to allow 2 or more different layers to rotate together is not quite as difficult or as time-consuming now that I know how get various layers to rotate together (using the same rotation point which is NOT the layers own center).
Dale
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by bonalymac » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:42 am
Dale
I'm having a play with your demo here. Haven't got far into it yet, but I've a a question for you.
Why are you using the extra layer to create a thin frame? What are the advantages of doing so as against simply using the outline function. I see how it works, I'm just not sure why you are using it. It is obviously adding complexity (in the fact that its another layer to manipulate) but where does it bring you benefits down the line?
I have a similar question on the shadow, although I do appreciate that you have far more control over the size, position and intensity of the shadow. But where there is so much motion, is this really a benefit, when you consider the extra complexity. The motion is the star here, and the drop shadow less so.
I'm keen to play with this as I liked the effect, but I want to understand why the start point is as it is, before I get stuck into it.
Incidentally, I did spot a strange anomoly when having a play here. I created a simple image (with outline) and a masking layer, and laid it side by side with an exact duplicate but with the addition of a duplicate of layer 2 as an unmasked layer 3. Both the outline and the image were significantly improved.
If the mask works as it says it does, should this not be impossible? I suspect the outline may be a different answer depending on the relationship between the mask and where PSP actually places the outline (inside/outside the image - or both). But the main image should surely not be enhanced in any way! I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to this before, but I can't remember where.
I'm having a play with your demo here. Haven't got far into it yet, but I've a a question for you.
Why are you using the extra layer to create a thin frame? What are the advantages of doing so as against simply using the outline function. I see how it works, I'm just not sure why you are using it. It is obviously adding complexity (in the fact that its another layer to manipulate) but where does it bring you benefits down the line?
I have a similar question on the shadow, although I do appreciate that you have far more control over the size, position and intensity of the shadow. But where there is so much motion, is this really a benefit, when you consider the extra complexity. The motion is the star here, and the drop shadow less so.
I'm keen to play with this as I liked the effect, but I want to understand why the start point is as it is, before I get stuck into it.
Incidentally, I did spot a strange anomoly when having a play here. I created a simple image (with outline) and a masking layer, and laid it side by side with an exact duplicate but with the addition of a duplicate of layer 2 as an unmasked layer 3. Both the outline and the image were significantly improved.
If the mask works as it says it does, should this not be impossible? I suspect the outline may be a different answer depending on the relationship between the mask and where PSP actually places the outline (inside/outside the image - or both). But the main image should surely not be enhanced in any way! I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to this before, but I can't remember where.
***************
Colin
***************
Colin
***************
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by BarbaraC » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:03 am
Colin, I can't answer the more complicated questions, but I can address the one about the thin outline: The outline function in Producer has little finesse, first off because, even set to '1', it can be too thick. I often use the same method as Dale when doing outlines because I've complete control when using a mask and pretty much no control when using an outline. Secondly, if you look closely at Producer's outline, it has curved corners that are often slightly broken.
As for shadows? Perhaps it doesn't matter much while the object is in motion, but it definitely matters when that object comes to a rest, which it absolutely must do if a person wants anyone to actually focus on the object. Producer's drop shadow is too hard and too dark.
Barbara
As for shadows? Perhaps it doesn't matter much while the object is in motion, but it definitely matters when that object comes to a rest, which it absolutely must do if a person wants anyone to actually focus on the object. Producer's drop shadow is too hard and too dark.
Barbara
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Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:58 am
Colin,
As Barbara mentioned, the Photodex outline really isn't all that great for all but the quick and dirty. I often don't want rounded corners and you can't get away from that with their outline. And the thickness is questionable. The outline is not really thin even at 1 and 5 is often not thick enough. Plus, I'm not wild about the control over its opacity. If you look at the demo closely, you'll notice that I sometimes used a really thin outline around the frame and sometimes around the image (gives a slightly more definition to the layer). Those thin outlines aren't possible using the ProShow outlines.
Relative to thin frames, with the mask and masked route, you can (using modifiers) create a frame as thin or thick as you want. Not only that but you can add the amount of desired rounding (angle of corner, both inside and outside edges). You can make the outline multicolored or single colored and you can change its opacity and feathering. Can't do that to the Photodex outline.
As you note, you have considerably more control over a shadow size, direction, intensity, and softness. But, you really don't want to change shadow types (yours and the Producer version) in the middle of a slide, with or without motion. Doing so can be a bit jarring if there's any difference between them. Plus, it's just not worth the extra work involved to shut one shadow off and turn the other on (several layers may be involved). Generally, you're best to work with one shadow from start to finish. It's visually more appealing (even when motion is involved).
I'm not following on your anomaly. It could be because I just got up and/or haven't even had my first cup of coffee! But, I don't know what you mean by "significantly improved." There shouldn't be any change to your images, duplicate or otherwise. There is a bug in the preview that affects the way shadows and such are sometimes displayed. This could be a display bug you're seeing. It's something that shows up during preview but not in an exported video.
Dale
As Barbara mentioned, the Photodex outline really isn't all that great for all but the quick and dirty. I often don't want rounded corners and you can't get away from that with their outline. And the thickness is questionable. The outline is not really thin even at 1 and 5 is often not thick enough. Plus, I'm not wild about the control over its opacity. If you look at the demo closely, you'll notice that I sometimes used a really thin outline around the frame and sometimes around the image (gives a slightly more definition to the layer). Those thin outlines aren't possible using the ProShow outlines.
Relative to thin frames, with the mask and masked route, you can (using modifiers) create a frame as thin or thick as you want. Not only that but you can add the amount of desired rounding (angle of corner, both inside and outside edges). You can make the outline multicolored or single colored and you can change its opacity and feathering. Can't do that to the Photodex outline.
As you note, you have considerably more control over a shadow size, direction, intensity, and softness. But, you really don't want to change shadow types (yours and the Producer version) in the middle of a slide, with or without motion. Doing so can be a bit jarring if there's any difference between them. Plus, it's just not worth the extra work involved to shut one shadow off and turn the other on (several layers may be involved). Generally, you're best to work with one shadow from start to finish. It's visually more appealing (even when motion is involved).
I'm not following on your anomaly. It could be because I just got up and/or haven't even had my first cup of coffee! But, I don't know what you mean by "significantly improved." There shouldn't be any change to your images, duplicate or otherwise. There is a bug in the preview that affects the way shadows and such are sometimes displayed. This could be a display bug you're seeing. It's something that shows up during preview but not in an exported video.
Dale
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by debngar » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:12 am
Hi Dale,
This certainly looks like it has potential for use in the shows with moving text blocks. I'm not sure yet how much I'd wind up using it for photos since I tend to use more subtle movements to keep things simple. But this is a great demo nevertheless - very smooth movements and no doubt a lot of time was spent making precise calculations to get things just right - something you're really good at!
Thanks for sharing your demo.
This certainly looks like it has potential for use in the shows with moving text blocks. I'm not sure yet how much I'd wind up using it for photos since I tend to use more subtle movements to keep things simple. But this is a great demo nevertheless - very smooth movements and no doubt a lot of time was spent making precise calculations to get things just right - something you're really good at!
Thanks for sharing your demo.
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:06 pm
One thing I discovered with text is that it does not share the rotation center change feature you have with layers. Kinda limits the utility of text blocks following a layer that is rotating around a changed rotation center. It would be nice if Photodex added the ability to change rotation centers for a block of text.
I tried various things, without luck, to get around that little limitation.
Dale
I tried various things, without luck, to get around that little limitation.
Dale
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by bonalymac » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:51 am
Dale, Barbara
Thanks for the feedback.
I take your points, and I'll have a look at it later this week, when I get a chance.
Thanks for the explanations.
As far as the masking is concerned, have a look here
http://vimeo.com/28653739
There are three separate images shown side by side. Is there a difference? There shouldn't be!
Images on the left comprise masking layer + image. Total of two layers.
Images on right have layer 2 duplicated as layer 3. This of course also brings the shadow into effect
Should be a straight "see-through". It appears that the right hand side is darker.
Thanks for the feedback.
I take your points, and I'll have a look at it later this week, when I get a chance.
Thanks for the explanations.
As far as the masking is concerned, have a look here
http://vimeo.com/28653739
There are three separate images shown side by side. Is there a difference? There shouldn't be!
Images on the left comprise masking layer + image. Total of two layers.
Images on right have layer 2 duplicated as layer 3. This of course also brings the shadow into effect
Should be a straight "see-through". It appears that the right hand side is darker.
***************
Colin
***************
Colin
***************
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by BarbaraC » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:47 am
There's a very noticeable difference, the outline on the left being more delicate. Not sure what happened with your shadow on the right unless you used Producer's drop shadow. If so, it's better to create your own so you can control everything about it.
Barbara
Barbara
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Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:18 am
I'm on the road (Oregon coast) and so can't look at your example at the moment. So I'll take a look at the first opportunity. Then I'll see if I can duplicate what you see. To date tho, I've seen no difference between a masked and unmasked image. Maybe there's a setup requirement that causes the problem you see?
Dale
Dale
Last edited by im42n8 on Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by kabeeo » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:23 am
Dale--
That is brilliant. Or at least I assume it is because I don't really understand it, quite frankly. That however, makes me enjoy it all the more and I am looking forward to your next Styles release.
That is brilliant. Or at least I assume it is because I don't really understand it, quite frankly. That however, makes me enjoy it all the more and I am looking forward to your next Styles release.
--Kevin
Proshow Producer
Canon 50D
Elements 10
Proshow Producer
Canon 50D
Elements 10
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by debngar » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:29 am
Post by im42n8 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:06 pm
One thing I discovered with text is that it does not share the rotation center change feature you have with layers. Kinda limits the utility of text blocks following a layer that is rotating around a changed rotation center. It would be nice if Photodex added the ability to change rotation centers for a block of text.
-snip-
Dale
You're right on that of course. I completely forgot the rotation center tool isn't included with caption adjustments, probably because I don't use that feature much due to my tendency to creating simpler displays. I agree, it would be nice to have that added feature.
Re: Coordinated Rotation Centers Demonstration
by im42n8 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:05 pm
Debbie,
I don't do much with text either ... usually keeping things really simple. However, I had some text following one of the rotating layers .... and the text wasn't moving. It didn't take me long to figure out what the problem was...but not how to get around it. I had never thought about a rotation center change for the text . . . and was disappointed to find it missing. [sigh ... oh well]
Colin,
In trying figure out what you did, I think I might have an answer. A duplicate of the image set to an alpha mask (and with no border), the original image (which has a ProShow border) will have some of the border show through the mask. I'm thinking that this might have something to do with partial transparency pixels at the mask layer's edge. Your best bet is to NOT use a border on the masked image nor a shadow. I tried with a 1 border on the image and a 5 border (largest). Surprisingly the 5 border showed even better through the mask than the 1 . . . so, don't use a ProShow border on a masked image!
When you create an outline for your masked image you do NOT want to use a ProShow outline. Instead, you want to use a separate graphic layer or ProShow layer (gradient or solid color) adjusted to slightly larger than the mask set (again, don't use a Proshow outline). That way you'll still have corners on the outline that match that of your image.
Dale
I don't do much with text either ... usually keeping things really simple. However, I had some text following one of the rotating layers .... and the text wasn't moving. It didn't take me long to figure out what the problem was...but not how to get around it. I had never thought about a rotation center change for the text . . . and was disappointed to find it missing. [sigh ... oh well]
Colin,
In trying figure out what you did, I think I might have an answer. A duplicate of the image set to an alpha mask (and with no border), the original image (which has a ProShow border) will have some of the border show through the mask. I'm thinking that this might have something to do with partial transparency pixels at the mask layer's edge. Your best bet is to NOT use a border on the masked image nor a shadow. I tried with a 1 border on the image and a 5 border (largest). Surprisingly the 5 border showed even better through the mask than the 1 . . . so, don't use a ProShow border on a masked image!
When you create an outline for your masked image you do NOT want to use a ProShow outline. Instead, you want to use a separate graphic layer or ProShow layer (gradient or solid color) adjusted to slightly larger than the mask set (again, don't use a Proshow outline). That way you'll still have corners on the outline that match that of your image.
Dale
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