unsolicited advice from a professional wedding photographer

[elsieallen]

hello all...

I read here often and post occasionally when the issue or mood strikes me.


I am not writing this to suggest that non-photographers should stay out of the slideshow business, or to complain that avid hobbyists offering low rates on DVD shows etc. is evil and so on...

I am offering you my opinion based on my experiences here in Southern Ontario, Canada.

If you don't want my opinion... move on!


I see and hear the question - Can you make a living selling slideshows only?

In my opinion - not likely.

Can you make a little cash on the side and serve a niche in most markets? - yes. absolutely.

before you flame me... let me explain...

There are photographers, one posts here often (Mark Ridout) who have carved out a niche in their market by offering slideshows only as the final product of their wedding photography. ie: no prints, no albums... just a spectacular slideshow. (please re-read the spectacular part over and over. Commit it to memory)

Photographers also created the images, and their efforts to create the slideshow is built into their overall price.

That's not the same as what most of you see as a business. You want to be part of the post wedding marketplace, where clients give you prints, negatives,
files or what have you, and you make up a show.


Do I have that right?


If so, I don't believe you can get your money back or be profitable, unless you keep the shows super-duper simple and make use of templates and either 1 or 2 pieces of fully released music. No lyrics!!! keep the effort to a minimum!

You are in business... not campaigning for an Oscar! Your efforts to be creative aren't profitable!

The clients will NOT care how much time or sweat or effort or whatever went into their show. You will be working on price and reputation only. IN MY OPINION.

I see slideshows as a feast or famine kind of product. You either have to dabble in them and keep them real simple, which is what I do. Or you have to make them spectacular (remember, I told you about this) and make them the main end product.

Anything in between will not work... IN MY OPINION. (sorry.. it's a touchy hot-button subject)

FYI... I make a slideshow as part of the final deliverables... I make it in iPhoto on a Mac. I use 100-120 of the best images. Takes me 10 minutes to select the images into an iPhoto album... 1 minute to begin the "make slideshow" process. Then I do something else. In about 45 mins, I have a DVD quality move which I send to iDvd. There I combine it with some other elements, make a menu... 10 minutes and then I go to bed... takes ~4 hours for the DVD image to render. In the morning, I burn DVD's, 8 minutes each. My client slideshows use a 2 sec. fade through black and is synced to the one 8:35 instrumental track I use. Sync to music determines the image onscreen length, but it's usually around 6-7 seconds. That's it... no more... no fun, but highly profitale.

Any more effort than that, and I can't be profitable.

Now... when I make a promotional show... OK, that's different... no amount of effort is too much, as I am looking for business then. I have spent 60+ hours getting it perfect...



I hope that may help you with some perspective on the business angle...

and keep in mind... I am only speaking to weddings... other slideshow revenue streams like funeral homes or scholls MAY be very different. I would think that the incredibly short turnaround times for funeral shows should bring a premium when they are priced. But KISS!

[briancbb Profile Private message]

How right you are Lorne.

It is so very easy to get tied up with a show, put bells and whistles in it, sync slides to the music beat, etc, and the hours just fly by. If shows are to be made for profit it is important to get the 'time/renumeration' equation correct.

I have put together very simple quick shows, because of time constraints, and they have been recieved with (to quote MSoft) 'WOW! ! !'. Other shows with a few 'bells and whistles' (considerably more time spent) have not raised any appreciable comment. (There's a thread by Jenn on this in the PSG section)

It is probably because the recipient is interested in the pictures, 'Oh look there's Aunt Emilly with Uncle John', rather than the, 'Hear that, the pictures change in time with the music'. A zoom may raise the comment, 'Look at her wrinkles', rather than, 'Doesn't that add variety to the show'.

Luckily all my shows are not for income, so I do get to play. One of the great privileges of being 'retired'.

Brian

[DPOP]

Lorne, thank you for your comments. I agree with Brian that you said some things that needed to be said, although for some reason I feel like I've been taken out behind the wood shed and given a "what for" - Ha!

As with Brian, I have some time on my hands, and I've developed a passion and love for photography and slideshows. I'm just starting out, so I have a lot of catching up to do. I do it because I enjoy it. I like the creative aspect of it. I have no illusions of making much money from my efforts. Years ago, some elderly ladies would spend hours making beautiful quilts. The money they received from their finished product did not fully compensate them for all of the time and effort they put into the quilt, but they weren't doing it for the money. Neither am I.

It would be difficult to scratch out a decent living offering only slideshows. The tone of most of the responders in this forum suggests that they enjoy what they do, and not that they are trying to win fame and fortune through PSP. If we get a little money along the way, that's great! But if we only do our shows for family and friends, that is also great!

Here a few unsolicited points to keep in mind regarding slideshows:
1. Enjoy what you do - have fun.
2. Keep your expectations realistic.

That's it for me. Signing off.
Dan

[lisco]

Greetings! I'm not one that usually weighs in on subjects such as this but I decided to anyway. I aked the question about making a living or money from doing shows not so much to see if I could break into the business, but because I was amazed that there are ppl making money doing what I love to do for free. I get paid by the expression on ppl's faces when they view the end product for the first time. As stated before, it would be extremely tough to make a living from just slideshows.

I agree with Brian and Dan (especially Dan about the wood shed) If I can pick up some change, great! Helps to offset some of the cost of the materials. Not so much my time.

Shoot! If I got paid what I thought I was worth, I'd starve to death for lack of work.

Just thinking out loud,

Scott

[shazmark Profile Private message]

Hi guys thought i would put my 2cents worth in as well,
Dan struck the nail on the head, with his comment about the little old ladies making quilts, we do the slideshows mostly because we love it...... the joy on peoples faces is really the best payment we recieve from these shows, of course money helps ...... we work for a club in a town close by and it has payed for my hobby, We hope to build up a reputation for ourselves and eventually when we retire we can have some extra income.
tnx for listening
sharon

[dnavarrojr]

He's got a lot of great points, however let me point out a few things as well...

In my area, the local photographers are typically so busy with work that they only do slideshows from their own work. They will not scan your existing photos and make a slideshow for you. So somebody has to fill that niche.

Second, there are a few photographers in my area that do not do slideshows at all. The subcontract that work out. If you have some really good samples, there's no reason why that subcontractor can't be you.

Third, while I agree that you probably can't make a full time living from just doing slideshows, you can make a significant income from it. So don't be discouraged from trying if you are interested. Personally, I'd rather try something and fail than not try at all.

If you are not a photographer, then you probably want to look at filling the following niches if there are openings in your area:

Preserving photographs. My parents and my grandparents old photo albums are deteriorating. CDs and DVDs still deteriorate over time, but they last MUCH MUCH longer than most photographs. And CDs and DVDs can easily be copied to prolong the data's life.

Special gifts. One of my first slideshows was a graduation gift for my daughter. It was photos of her life from birth to just before graduation (I later updated it to include her grad pictures). I showed that to friends, many of whom paid me to do the same for their children. My fiance' took a CD with a slideshow I did of my granddaughter's birth to work and I ended up getting paid to do 12 more for people at her work and friends who saw what I did for them.

Real Estate. Before I moved to another state, I used to do hundreds of slideshows for realtors. This was in Florida where a lot of realtors concentrate on selling to out-of-state buyers, so they needed something that really showed off the local area. My ex-wife and I took thousands of pictures and culled them to a couple hundred that we used to create a semi-customizable slideshow that we sold to the local realtors. We would also take the digital pictures given to us of a home and create a "virtual tour" of sorts with captions and music. Much more popular than the 3Dish virtual tours on web sites at the time.

There's lots of other ideas. But my main point is that there *may* be opportunities out there for you. It just takes a little research and willingness to do the work on the side. Again, it probably won't pay all your bills, but in this day and age any extra cash is a good thing. Especially when you make it doing something you thoroughly enjoy.

I'll say it one more time... I personally would rather try and fail than not try at all.

My ex-wife and I lost everything (business and home) in hurricane charley a number of years ago and we divorced two years ago. I have moved to different states twice now, finally landing in Kansas. The tech job market here is tough and it's been difficult to find permenant work that pays more than minimum wage. So, I turned to a passion I had when I owned my business in Florida. Web design and playing with ProShow.

I don't make anywhere near what I used to, but I bring in enough money to supplement my unemployment that we get by. And my "side-business" is growing. The more presentations I do, the more words gets out and the more I hear from people who are interested.

I expect to eventually find a full-time job, but I plan to continue doing slideshows and web sites for money on the side. If nothing else, it pays for my addiction to buying new computer stuff.

[shazmark Profile Private message]

we thouroughly enjoyed reading your post, and we agree totally with what you say, I am glad your slideshows bring you happiness and I trully wish you all the best of luck with them. Looking foward to reading more posts from you
cheers
shazmark

[shazmark Profile Private message]

we thouroughly enjoyed reading your post, and we agree totally with what you say, I am glad your slideshows bring you happiness and I trully wish you all the best of luck with them. Looking foward to reading more posts from you
cheers
shazmark

[cfeather]

All great points. Perhaps Photodex oversells their product in this area. I have yet to sell a DVD as part of a wedding. I've offered them from three years now, and have a DVD demo disc, but people just won't shell out the $195 for the DVD delivery. They'd rather do the $295 for the file release. That's O.K. A lot less work for me.

Ridout has managed to create a niche, but the market he's in is conducive to that sort of thing.

I can't imagine making a living from slide shows. Thirty-five years ago I attempted to do the same thing with real slide shows, that is two- and three-projector shows. I failed miserably time after time. It was my passion, but no one else shared it. Couldn't even pay for the cost of equipment. The impact was incredible on a big screen with a great sound system.

I'm guessing the best way to make money off these things is to offer 10 free pizzas, 100 wings and a 24-pack of beer with every DVD. Perhaps some tickets to a sporting event, as well.

[dnavarrojr]

I can't imagine making a living from slide shows. Thirty-five years ago I attempted to do the same thing with real slide shows, that is two- and three-projector shows. I failed miserably time after time. It was my passion, but no one else shared it. Couldn't even pay for the cost of equipment. The impact was incredible on a big screen with a great sound system.

I'm guessing the best way to make money off these things is to offer 10 free pizzas, 100 wings and a 24-pack of beer with every DVD. Perhaps some tickets to a sporting event, as well.

Markets are different. And it depends on what your time is worth to you. Since I am without a job a the moment, idle time is worthless, so I *pimp* myself out pretty low. I do most shows for $99. However, they are all based on a few common templates I made, so the work for me to do them is minimal. I charge more for doing something brand new and original. That price does not include scanning, but so far only one person has had needed it... most people seem to have their photos in digitall format these days.

If you're "real job" makes more money, then charging such a low price probably isn't in your best interest. However, for me it's high enough to be worthwhile and low enough that many people in my area can afford it.

Since this kind of "is my job", I spend a lot of time promoting it, which helps. I printed a bunch of flyers and went to the mall and passed them out at the food court. Got 9 buyers from that so far. Next time I'm gonna take some business card CDs with a couple sample shows to pass out with the flyers.

I also got my first *big* job this week from a wedding photographer that doesn't do slideshows. They saw my work from a friend of a friend of a friend and one of their clients wants a DVD. So he came to me.

I don't have anywhere NEAR the talent of a lot of people on this board, but most people look at what I've done and *think* they can't do it themselves, so I'm lucky that they ask me to do it. And for some strange reason, they pay me for it.

[dtpitts Profile Private message]

dnavarrojr,

Wow, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts... great ones too! Good luck to you and I think with your attitude you will go far! You have some of the same ideas as myself!

Can you tell me more about the DVD that you made for the Real Estate agents to sell their city? I had that thought about a month ago and thought that would be great to offer to the agents and just have one show and then customize the DVD itself with their personal information on it, is that what you did? I have that (take the photos) on my list to do since it is Spring here in my city. How did you determine what photos to use? My thought was to see what the Chamber of Commerce highlighted on their web-site??? Any suggestions would certainly be appreciated!!

I too LOVE doing these shows and make a small amount of money here and there, but everything helps!!!

Also, you may want to look into doing shows for your area schools, end of the year sporting events is a great one. Maybe do the first show at a discounted rate to get them "hooked"!!

Love when people share there business tips!

Thanks for doing so!!!

Teresa

[dnavarrojr]

Can you tell me more about the DVD that you made for the Real Estate agents to sell their city?

That is exactly what I did. I created the "basic show" with all of the slides and captions. For each realtor, I created a custom "intro" at the beginning and a custom "closing" at the end which featured their contact information. The show itself is the same in between the intro and closing.

I thought about doing the same thing here in Kansas, but there's no market for it. Very few people move to Kansas unless they have to. And very, very few realtors in my area specialize in selling real estate to people outside the area. Since people here already know what's here, there's not much point in doing it.

I have contacted a couple of local realtors about doing "home tours". Right now they pay up to $200 for a 3D virtual tour and none of the virtual tours include captions or any real pizazz. I can create a "tour" as a slideshow using their own pictures (no special camera or tripod required), add some captions, a little music and I personally think the result is better. And now that PSP does flash output, they can easily be uploaded to the realtors web site and don't need special ActiveX controls.

[Ladybug]

I just HAVE to chime in here. Great thoughts from all! The wonderful thing is that we all have different talents. I have found that photography is not my forte', so I focus on what I CAN do really well. It's kind of like a Cinematographer, Editor, Director or Set designer. All are necessary for the end 'vision' but each has their own perspective and specialty.

As in all business, we have to decide WHO we are marketing to. I have found that most Pro photographers view the whole slideshow arena as merely an extension. Their interest is in creating the photos. I WISH I could take the truly beautiful images, but that has never been my strength. I envy the gifted Professionals. I've been playing with computer graphics and video since the beginning and that'smy strength. I used to do it for free until people kept asking me how come I didn't charge. I'm not interested in the perfect photo, but in creating a 'memory' that will evoke feelings. Yes, the 'wow's' come from seeing the Bride, auntie, so on. The TEST for me is if the REST of the group stay interested! The 'oohs and aahs' and tears and laughter are what I'm all about. Our society is increasingly visual and appreciates a good product, just like a good movie.

Here, in my neck of the woods (Utah), the culture is keenly interested in ALL aspects of memory keeping and enhancing. This is where 'scrapbooking' started Brides want the 'latest', everyone wants the latest and coolest. I cater to the segment that would rather pay someone else to do it then take the time to do it themselves. My end results are definitely NOT of a hobbyist, but a professional. I have even been contracted to create DVD's for the professionals to market their services. Then, eveyone spends time on what they do well.

So, look around, find the niche and fill it! I'm expanding my shows to digital scrapbooking....not for the mom at home who loves to hobby, but to professionals and others who love the look and ease, but don't have the time. Same goes for Digital Yearbooks. BTW, I don't worry about getting work off the Web. My website is just for presence and viewing demos. Every thing I do comes from referral, trade shows, and passing out business cards to absolutely EVERYBODY. Joining clubs, business organizations, etc is a good way to NETWORK. I'm an Interior Designer in my 'other' life. Both my businesses compliment each other.

Don't sell yourself short. If you want to sell Steak, don't market McDonald's!

Most of all, enjoy!
That's my nickel's worth.

G'nite to all!
Ladybug

[dnavarrojr]

Don't sell yourself short. If you want to sell Steak, don't market McDonald's!

Nice quote. I love it!

I just got a contract from a local Radio Station to start making shows for their website from photos of events they sponsor (concerts, etc.). So it gave me an idea for another niche. Contacting corporations to put together shows of company outings (picnics, parties, etc.). I'm gonna start putting together some marketing materials this coming weekend.

--Dave

[threads1]

Hi eveybody..this is a great thread.

As a photographer who's passion is wildlife and nature I would starve to death trying to just sell my nature prints. Ever go to a home and garden type show and see a dozen or more photographers trying to sell prints of eagles, bears etc. It's a flooded market. Sure they sell a few, but is it going to pay the mortgage? Nope! You have to go where the money is. So where is the money? I think it's in niche markets as a lot of people have already said here. But, no matter what your niche is, don't sell to the bottom feeders. By that I mean, the lower income groups, charities, friends etc. Go out to sell the people that have a larger disposible income. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, and my favorite..larger corporations. I think Dave has just found his goldmine.

This technology we are all playing with is fairly new and seems intimidating to the general public right now. How about 5 years from now? Will everyone in the free world have this type of software and be able to use it without a lot of needed expertise? Maybe. So go after the lazy or overworked segment of your niche market. They will never take the time to do it themselves.

Pricing is a subject that scares a lot of people. I know it did me. I almost gave away my services just to get the work. But if you price too low you give the impression of a cheap product. You know the BMW is a great car because it's so expensive right. And yes, not everybody drives a BMW.......but a lot of people do.

As I said before, Corporations are my favorite niche. And for a lot of reasons. Trade show presentations, inside training, end of year parties ( year in review DVD's ) etc. And these guys pay well. The corp's I work for love to see their name plastered all over everything. Look for the ones in your area that have everything lettered up. Trucks, billboards, TV ads etc. It's a good chance you will be able to sell them more of themselves.

Sorry for rambling. I'm sure as heck no expert. And I know the veterans here have heard a lot of this before. But this was just too much of a neat topic to just read and not open my big mouth.

Have fun,

Charlie