Music?

Post links to music sources and discuss music choices for shows
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Re: Music?

Postby BarbaraC » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:15 pm

Ron, he was having his own little rant, so perhaps a bit of slack might be cut for him, though it's possible some rants need to be a little less public. :D

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Re: Music?

Postby Ron » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:39 pm

Barbara this man is noted for his rants & raves - just one in the many!!
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Re: Music?

Postby debngar » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:27 pm

Ron wrote:-snip-
Debbie on a side note ... WRT Harlan Ellison, he makes his point very well and which I agree with 100%. Unfortunately he comes across as an arogant, arguementative, asshole. I'm a liitle familiar with some of his work, going back to his affilation with the original Star Trek. This man is a very talented writer/artist and some of his works are a must read. But as a man I have no respect for hiss pompous manner. Just my 2 cents ... Sorry for my little rant ...

Ron


Hi Ron,

That's ok - I understand. I agree with you that he doesn't have to present his position in the manner he does (using the profanity etc). The reason I posted that link is because of the main point, not the profanity. I'd prefer to hear the point being made without it. :(

There are people on the other sides of the argument/discussions who can sometimes come across arrogant too.
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Re: Music?

Postby peterphelan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:43 pm

As I posted in an earlier thread, it's worth checking in your own country but for UK based folk, this page on the PRS (Performing Rights Society) will provide the answer. See: http://www.prsformusic.com/users/recordedmedia/dvdsanddigitalmedia/Pages/default.aspx
This arrangement is specifically tailored for such people making the kind of shows the OP mentioned and allows you to pay a very modest fee for the use of even well know artists' material if it falls within the categories shown. There may well be similar arrangements for other countries.

I have paid PRS for the rights to sell my own album by The Weavers Green see http://www.weaversgreen.co.uk

We recorded the album, made our own arrangements etc but all but two of the songs were actually written by other songwriters, so I need to pay them royalties as "covers" of their originals.

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Re: Music?

Postby DickK » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:19 pm

That's an interesting site but it's not clear just what music is covered by the license they issue and therefore their authority to issue a license for that music. Paying them for a license to use a Rolling Stones track (for example) is all well and good but meaningless if they don't have the authority to issue it. Even more problematic it seems to me for music released outside the UK.

Since I'm not sure just what they can do it's hard to know for sure but to my knowledge there's nothing like that inside the US.

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Re: Music?

Postby peterphelan » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:19 am

PRS is the standard licencing authority in the UK and my understanding is that you buy a licence based upon where you live, or where your products are produced; I am in the UK hence I buy from PRS. Royalties are then paid via them to the appropriate people, which could be the music publisher, singer songwriter, wherever they are located in the world. It's a bit different for me and the WG album, since we actually recorded the material rather than just used other people's recordings on a record, but the principle is much the same. CD Baby in the USA sell and distribute the WG album on my behalf, but I still buy royalty clearance in the UK.

You can check the situation in the USA here: http://www.songclearance.com and they have info here: http://www.songclearance.com/page/about which states:
Limelight is perfect for:
◦Bands or artists covering another artist’s song.
◦Church ensembles.
◦College and University music schools.
◦High School music programs.
◦Independent record labels.
◦Anyone who wants to distribute or sell digital or physical recordings which include cover songs.

PSP Shows for clients would come under the last heading. There is an FAQ page here: http://www.songclearance.com/page/faq

Another option worth checking out for PSP shows music is SonicFire Pro. I use this software to make up my own royalty free music, so then there are no copyright issues anyway.

Hope this helps
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Re: Music?

Postby DickK » Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:43 am

I'm no lawyer at all and certainly not for Intellectual Property rights, but looking at Limelight I don't see that this helps for doing slide shows at all.

The reason is that a slide show doesn't create a cover version of a song, it creates a "derivative work" that incorporates the original artist's work. That's a specific, individual right within the bundle of rights covered by copyright law. If I'm a band wanting to perform the Rolling Stone's "Gimme Shelter," then I'm covering the song and it appears that Limelight "...a simple way to clear ANY cover song," may be what I want. Without consulting an attorney I can't be sure, but it sure doesn't seem to me that helps when it comes to using "Gimme Shelter" inside my video -- one is me creating a new song and one is me using their song.

I sure wish it was that easy, it should be. I'd love to be wrong, but my interpretation is that this doesn't help our situation.

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Re: Music?

Postby peterphelan » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:05 pm

It can be a bit confusing, but I have looked into this in some depth for my own use and as Limelight says:
>>The most common mechanical uses are in CDs, digital downloads, or ringtones, however mechanical also includes:

◦Any use where there is a reproduction made of a sound recording embodying a musical composition – whether physical or digital.<<

You own the copyright to any actual PSP work you produce, this is an artistic work in its own right, but:
1) The images must be your own, or you have copyright clearance for them to be used in your shows. If not you need to pay a licence fee to the copyright holder of the images.
2) In the same way, if you incorporate any music, written by another, you need to pay the small royalty fee if you plan to sell those shows.

It's a bit like a book. I may write a book that incorporates images taken by myself, but because I do not have suitable images of my own to illustrate some points, use those of another photographer. I can publish and sell my book, and the copyright in that book is mine. But I have to pay a licence fee to the other photographer for the use of his images in my book.

I actually worked as a lawyer many years ago! :D

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Re: Music?

Postby DickK » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:53 pm

Peter,

While I understand what you're saying, it seems quite clear to me that from this (from the site)

Limelight is a simple online clearance utility allowing artists and labels to clear cover songs and third-party compositions for Physical Product, Interactive Streaming, Digital Downloads, and Ringtones.


has nothing to do with incorporating a commercial music track directly into another media. I'm hard pressed to believe they've somehow acquired full rights (necessary for them to license the right of derivative work to another party) to every song on every label in any one country much less globally. Such rights for any major artist come with price tags a lot higher than they're quoting.

Further, checking the definition of "mechanical license royalty" (I used both Wikipedia and US Library of Congress, Copyright office) shows:

In the United States, while the right to use copyrighted music for making records for public distribution (for private use) is an exclusive right of the composer, the Copyright Act provides that once the music is so recorded, anyone else can record the composition/song without a negotiated license but on the payment of the statutory compulsory royalty. Thus, its use by different artists could lead to several separately-owned copyrighted 'sound recordings'.


I think it's that "...statutory compulsory royalty" is what Limelight is collecting. This is consistent with the notion that this applies to the circumstance where I've created another performance of the tune. In this circumstance, normal copyright provisions don't apply which is the reason this set of rules got created I guess. Using a track in a slideshow seems unlikely to fit this case--the examples cited in both sources seem pretty clear to me that dropping an MP3 of a tune into a slide show is in the "derivative work" area. And yes, the rules for 'mechanical royalty' fees in the UK are different but appear intended to cover the same ground.

In any case, it seems clear that if you sit down at a keyboard, play "Gimme Shelter" and want to distribute it (or use it in a slide show), you can--you own the copyright for that performance, but you owe a royalty fee back to the original artist/rights holder. Didn't know how that worked and this is another interesting corner of IP law but I still don't think it applies to our circumstances. Nothing is simple with any of IP law.

Lastly, I've contacted Limelight with this question and I'll let everyone know how they respond.

Dick
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Re: Music?

Postby DickK » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:57 am

Okay at least in the case of Limelight, the answer is that their license does not apply.
-------the response email -------------
Hi Dick,
No it won't -- that wouldn't constitute a derivative work so much as a synchronization.
alex holz
Senior Director of Artist and Community Relations / rightsflow®, inc.
a licensing and royalty service provider
--------email removed----------/ http://www.rightsflow.com

56 West 22nd Street (off 6th Ave), 9th Floor
New York, NY 10010
dir +1.646.461.6391 / mob +1.646.932.4595 / fax +1.646.607.1492 / skype rightsflowalex / twitter alexbhlz

Check out Limelight songclearance.com for the simplest way to clear cover songs
See the NEW Limelight Video Series "Cover Story" - Episode 1 (Richard Gottehrer)

-----original to them------
From: [mailto:-------------------}
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 1:14 AM
To: Limelight Support
Subject: Limelight Support Question

I have a question for you regarding the circumstances under which a license obtained from you applies.

Specifically, will any license from you convey the right for me to create a derivative work containing a commercial music track? For example, if I want to use the Rolling Stones track "Gimme Shelter" in a video that I'm making (the video is my own creation), will a license from you convey the right to use the track in this way? The track is from the CD "Let It Bleed" a copy of which I own.

Thanks for the information.
Dick Knisely


-------------------
His comment about derivative work vs. synchronization is interesting because that's not on the list of rights recognized by US law or the Berne Treaty. But it doesn't change anything in any case.

We need an organization like this which can, in fact, issue such licenses for nominal fees. I never understood the 'cover song' licensing issues--not sure I do now for that matter, but I know a bunch more than I did. I doubt it will happen but we can hope.

Dick
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Re: Music?

Postby czali » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:22 pm

This is going to be a really different thought. Has anyone every given any thought to keeping the music outside of the program (Proshow) and if somehow there was a way to take the music and edit it just as you normally would and play it at the same time as the show plays. This would be done in a program that does not require you to copy the file. So this would be like when a DJ plays a song at a wedding for all to listen to or my aerobic instructor plays a song during class. I hope this makes sense??? This is issue never has made any sense to me. You buy the song and just want people to listen to it with the pictures?? How can we get away from the copying. If Proshow had a way of doing this, would it then be legal?

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Re: Music?

Postby Merlin_AZ » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:00 pm

I think the reason that works is because you aren't using the music to create something else.
You are just at the wedding listening to the music you bought the license to listen to.
It just so happens that there are a lot of other people there as well.

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Re: Music?

Postby DickK » Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:32 am

Big caveat: this whole area is messy, sometimes dependent on the national laws and I'm no lawyer.

That said, I believe that it's not the act of creating a copy that's as much an issue as how you're using it. When you bought the CD (or downloaded the track) you got a very limited license to basically listen to it and that's it. Your idea is interesting and might or might not trip over the same spots in the copyright laws, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't avoid the basic issue of using it outside the provisions of the license.

As a pragmatic issue it also has problems because the music and visuals don't stay together--fine for an EXE on a computer but doesn't work if you need a DVD as output.

I really wish the distributors/labels/rights holders would adopt a personal use model--use it however you want for personal purposes. But that doesn't solve the problem for those wanting to use it in a product they want to sell or distribute--the best we could hope for there would be the creation of an agency that would administer/broker the "extended rights" purchase something like the ones discussed above do for the "cover song" issues, or the "public performance" royalty fees that the DJ is supposed to pay. I'm not optimistic the big organizations will see enough reason to participate but it's what we need.

Dick
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Re: Music?

Postby czali » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:49 am

Dick,

Thank for the insight. I think that would put everyone at ease if they would adopt something. No one wants to break any laws here or not pay the writer for their work. The whole thing is really messy. Royalty-free is just not a solution for most of us.

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Re: Music?

Postby just4fun » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:06 am

I think copyright is essential but there are a few legal ways to do it. First, search for "old music" that was created before copyright. There is some out there. I have gotten permission from local artists who are willing to allow me to use their music as long as I give them credit and do not sell or profit. They do allow me to share. Some of them welcome the exposure, even if it is just your friends. We are lucky to have a niece with a beautiful voice and she will record for me to Kareoke music that she has. Church organists may help you with "older" hymns and wedding music that does not have copyright. If your recordings are not great, play it as a soft background, often that is best anyway. Also, I have done family birthdays and put on Utube and the will let you know if there is a copyright. Some companies now allow you to use it if you allow them to advertise and post links so people can purchase the music if they like it (money talks, free advertising). Also, one of my other programs has generic music that you can put in. If you are planning on selling your work, paying the royality has to be part of your cost but there are some not too expensive. I know the words of a song often really get the message of your show home and I use it way too much, but as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Vivian

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