Masks vrs frames

Post your tips & tricks here for creating slide shows with ProShow Gold. This could include suggestions for style and content in addition to working with the software itself
smbrwn11

Masks vrs frames

Postby smbrwn11 » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:59 am

I know you Pros are probably tired of answering the same type of questions, but I really do appreciate your help! I have been studying the tutorials on both PSG and PSE6 on masks and layers. I just came across a posting about frames. Can someone explain the basic difference between a frame and a mask? Or are they kind of interchangeable?

My next question is I believe that a mask makes a transparent pattern or cutout so that a picture can be seen in different shapes to make them more interesting. I have downloaded a lot of different types of masks and tried using them both in PSG and PSE6, but none of them are transparent so I can't just add a picture behind it so it will be seen. I know it's my ignorance, but I'm trying to understand. I followed a step by step tutorial on PSE6 on how to use adjustment layers and group the layers and that really helped me understand a few things, but I think the masks they were talking about in the tutorial are a little different than the masks that would be used in PSG.

The only masks I have gotten to work in PSG were the masks saved in the fonts. Then when you add a caption, each letter was a different mask. But now when I try to use that again, all the letters are now the same basic oval mask. All the others have disappeared on me! I'm frustrated!

Here are a couple of examples of what I've done so far. Nothing spectacular, just practicing what I've learned.

http://www.photodex.com/sharing/viewsho ... 3116&alb=0
http://www.photodex.com/sharing/viewsho ... 3117&alb=0

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Re: Masks vrs frames

Postby DickK » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:21 am

smbrwn11 wrote:Can someone explain the basic difference between a frame and a mask? Or are they kind of interchangeable?

I think it's more terminology on how they're used than anything else. A mask might have one or a bunch of transparent areas letting the picture behind it show through. And the mask itself could be another image -- say a window with curtains and lattice work that you're "looking" through to the scene beyond. To me, a frame is simply a mask where the central area is transparent and the non-transparent piece goes around the edge of the underlying image to literally frame it.

smbrwn11 wrote:I have downloaded a lot of different types of masks and tried using them both in PSG and PSE6, but none of them are transparent so I can't just add a picture behind it so it will be seen.

Strange, because anything that's intended as a mask or frame should have parts of them set to be transparent. One thing to watch for tho' is that only some image file types support transparency and JPG isn't one of them. Most commonly, something intended as a mask will be in the PNG format tho' both GIF and some versions of TIFF support transparency. But if, for example, what you had was something that looked like a picture frame but the middle wasn't transparent then what you'd need to do was change that and save the file as a PNG. Inside Elements (or many editors) you can do that, look at the help on setting transparency. Essentially you change the color space/mode to palette and then designate one of the colors as transparent. If the middle isn't all one color then you can cut it out carefully and make the cut out portion transparent.

smbrwn11 wrote:The only masks I have gotten to work in PSG were the masks saved in the fonts. Then when you add a caption, each letter was a different mask. But now when I try to use that again, all the letters are now the same basic oval mask. All the others have disappeared on me! I'm frustrated!

This trick was a workaround for the fact that PSG Version 2 didn't support layers so it exploited a font in a caption to create simple outline frames/masks. Sounds to me like the required font isn't installed but personally, I'd skip using that trick now because using an image layer in PSG is a lot more flexible than a caption can ever be.

Hope that helps a little.
Dick
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle ((PSG, PSE & Fuji HS20 user)) Presentation Impact Blog

smbrwn11

Re: Masks vrs frames

Postby smbrwn11 » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:37 am

Thanks Dick! The masks I downloaded are in .jpg format. When I downloaded them, I had the impression they were ready to use. I'll have to go pack to PSE and learn how to change them into transparent images. I'll look for a tutorial to help me learn to do this. I would never be able to learn all this without the help of others explanations! Thanks again!

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Postby BarbaraC » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:54 am

My next question is I believe that a mask makes a transparent pattern or cutout so that a picture can be seen in different shapes to make them more interesting.


I couldn't understand the difference between masks and frames at all when I first started, and even now, I tend to avoid masks because my understanding of how they work is still a bit muddy. However, in its simplest form, let's say you have a picture that's a white heart on a black background, and you place that picture as a top layer where there are two layers beneath it. After designating the heart picture as a mask, that white heart will, in a manner of speaking, "drill through" the second layer and expose the third layer, while the black area will expose only the second layer. (Or is it that the black area will expose the third layers? I can never remember.) So if you have a grayscale version of a photo on the second layer and a color version of that same photo on the third layer, you can create a heart-shaped area of color in the center of the photo, having everything around the heart grayscale. There's a rule that says something like "white exposes"--or is it black that does this? I always have to fiddle with the invert function to get what I want. :?

If you're looking to have a simple heart-shaped picture, you won't need to use a mask since a frame composed of a transparent heart surrounded by black or some other color will do the trick.

I thought keyframes in Producer were going to be the death of me, but it turns out that masks are my true downfall. :(

Barbara

P.S. Look in the tutorials section where you'll find some excellent stuff on masks.

smbrwn11

Re: Masks vrs frames

Postby smbrwn11 » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:49 pm

Thanks Barb! I have PSG but will be upgrading to PSP for Christmas probably sometime today! I have learned so much the last few weeks and I can't wait to put together my next show.

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Postby DickK » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:07 pm

Keep it simple. If the terminology is a carry-over from the photo world then think of a mask as something that subtracts or hides something. A frame adds something -- the border image around the outside. In reality they're the same thing as far as ProShow goes -- just a layer with part of the image transparent and part isn't.
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Postby rkligman » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:26 pm

DickK wrote:In reality they're the same thing as far as ProShow goes -- just a layer with part of the image transparent and part isn't.
Dick


That's only partially true Dick. A mask layer NEVER shows any part of ITSELF. All it does is show or hide things underneath it. If you have any colors in a mask, you would not see them. All a mask does is set the opacity level of the layers beneath it.
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Postby DickK » Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:46 pm

rkligman wrote:That's only partially true Dick. A mask layer NEVER shows any part of ITSELF. All it does is show or hide things underneath it. If you have any colors in a mask, you would not see them. All a mask does is set the opacity level of the layers beneath it.

Okay all the words are English and make sense but I don't understand what you're saying as it applies to ProShow Gold. At least in PSG (vice an editor or, maybe, PSP)--as far as I know there's no such thing as a "mask layer," just one image on top of another, one of which functions to hide parts of the underlying image(s).

And in PSG (which is the section the question was posted in) there's no way to control the opacity of anything -- you can do it an editor but not in PSG directly, unless I've missed something and that's certainly possible. From comments here, I believe that's an option in PSP but if it can be done in PSG I'd love to know how.

Am I misunderstanding something here??

Dick
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Postby rkligman » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:41 am

You are missing something. Maybe I'm misspeaking since I don't have Gold but I will assume that the masking part is identical since there are only 3 choices to make with it. First, you need to come out and check out my tutorial series on Masks. I think that would answer a lot of questions. http://www.mycityphotoguide.com and click on Tutorials.

You can have multiple layers in a slide. Each sitting on top of each other. If I had a frame, say a nice bright Red frame with transparency in the middle, I would put that in Layer 1 and my picture in Layer 2. When I ran the show, I'd see the Red Frame and inside it, Layer 2.

Now, change that Frame to a Mask. Whoa, where did my frame go? The red area of the Frame now becomes essentially an opacity area. It's behavior will depend on whether you selected an Alpha Mask or Grayscale Mask. Using one setting, the frame will hide the inside part of Layer 2 (the transparent area of the frame), and the other setting will do just the opposite, show the Layer 2 inside of the frame. In both cases though, the Red Frame itself will be nowhere to be seen because it's a Mask. A designated layer that sets the opacity of the layers below (I'm just trying to relate, using Proshow terms, that the mask is NOT a picture, that it won't been seen in the slide).

It's a confusing area...for many..because PS did it backwards from what most people who use masks expect. I have a 6 part tutorial on the subject. It can be a complex subject. Once you grasp the concept though, it's a really nice thing to use in your shows so it's worth learning. I hope I'm making a little more sense. Check a couple of the tutorials and see if that doesn't shine a bright light on the subject. Off to work now...
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Postby DickK » Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:50 am

Nope, actually I don't think I'm missing anything--PSG is tho'. As I suspected, the trouble is that there's a function is PSP not present in PSG, which is clear with a look at your tutorial which is for PSP and only PSP. The very first thing you do is designate the layer as a mask which isn't a function in PSG.

Bottom line is that we're both right but it depends on which software you're working with--and that's clearly the source of a bunch of confusion when this topic comes up.

The word "mask" (more properly "mask layer") means something very specific to users of PSP. But the more generic description of the terms I outlined is correct outside this specific context. For users of PSG that more general description is accurate. Masks and frames are simply the same function used differently -- maybe we shouldn't even use the word mask in that context but it's out there already so we just need to be aware that users of PSP vs. PSG will have a different context for the word.

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Postby rkligman » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:32 pm

Aha! Your right. I just looked at the comparsion sheet and Masking is only in Producer. So why is a Gold user asking about Masking? I'll have to reread the original message. See, that will teach me to jump into the Gold section when I don't have that product. :oops:
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Postby DickK » Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:56 pm

Well, the original question, I think, is derived from looking at combination of discussions here and various samples and examples. Unfortunately, we collectively haven't been very clear about just what we mean by masks. Not deliberate, just a natural consequence of using the words out of context and since each person "knows" what they mean by it, there's a tendency to assume the other party is using the term the same way. There's enough overlap in the functionality that if I (a PSG user) say "I used a mask in the show" then a PSP user will look at it and might not know that I didn't (couldn't) use a mask layer to get the effect. Likewise, if you (a PSP user) say you used a mask, you might mean you did exactly what I did, or more likely, you meant you used a mask layer.

The key bit here is to simply know that the difference is there and it might be helpful if PSP user's used "mask layer" when that's what's involved.

Anyway, to the OP's question--since you're a PSG user, the answer is that "mask" and "frame" are just two words for doing the same thing in the software but you're doing it different reasons. The reason to put a mask on top of an image is to creatively block part of the underlying image; the reason to apply a frame is to creatively surround part or all of an image. Add to that a warning that some folks here will use "mask" to mean that they did something quite different in the software (PSP) but with the same goal of creatively hiding part of a lower layer.

Whew! I'm really glad actually we got through that -- the whole terminology thing was causing a lot of confusion and we often didn't even realize it. :?
Dick
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle ((PSG, PSE & Fuji HS20 user)) Presentation Impact Blog

smbrwn11

Postby smbrwn11 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:33 pm

Actually I appreciate the answers from both because I will be (hopefully) very soon upgrading to Producer. I get the differences that you were both talking about, and it confirmed I basically have a small grasp on what a mask is in different programs. Now the hard part is getting comfortable using them and learning what works and what doesn't work. That just takes trial and error and whole lot of patience! Thanks guys!

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